Lucy Peach

Interview by Madeleine Dore

Lucy Peach: Folk singer, theatre performer and author

Full transcript

“If you add up all of that time where we’re kind of admonishing ourselves when we’re premenstrual, I’m not good enough, I’m feeling inadequate, I’m feeling overwhelmed. So you have that, and then you plus having your period where there’s a whole cultural narrative of that, that you’ve just got to push through. It’s like, that’s half of your reproductively viable life that you’re spending just not being where you are. And when you think about seasons, we understand that there’s a time for everything and once you dig a little deeper, I think there’s just this beautiful opportunity to really understand your flavour in each of those phases.”
– Lucy Peach 

Madeleine Dore: We live in a linear world with linear schedules and linear expectations of our energy, of our time, of our bodies. Consistency and growth is expected and pressured, yet when we don’t fit into these unrelenting and narrow demands, we can sometimes feel shame or spiral into self-blame.

But what if there’s no such thing as a linear world or a linear life? What if we don’t move through our days in straight lines, but rather we bend and meander and ebb and flow in cycles?

For some of us, those cycles are inherent to our biology. Perhaps there’s no matter example of how our lives are cyclical than the menstrual cycle. For those with a period, how often will you sense in yourself a shift in your energy, yet ignore it to push through? How often have you sensed this ebb and flow, but not inspected it?

Even if you don’t have a menstrual cycle, perhaps there’s something for us all in rethinking our connection to everything that does have a cycle. Creativity, nature, life.

I’m excited to look a little bit closer at the ebb and flow with this week’s guest, Lucy Peach. Lucy is a self-described period preacher. The folk singer, theatre performer, and former biology teacher and sexual health educator tracked her hormonal changes for an entire year, which she used in her songwriting for her show My Greatest Period Ever. Most recently, her book Period Queen: Life Hack Your Cycle and Own Your Power All Month Long delves further into the different phases of our cycles and what we can learn from each.

Since devouring the book, my relationship to my menstrual cycle has changed quite dramatically. I now keep track of the four different phases in a Google calendar, so I can avert what’s called cycle amnesia, and also plan different projects around where I might be in my cycle and pay attention to what my body might need, be it more exercise, be it more rest, be it more alone time, be it connection.

In this conversation, we delve further into cycle amnesia, how to zoom out and look at the four phases of your entire cycle, and how that’s different for everybody. We look at period shame and truth bombs, we look at post-project blues, freelancing, and giving yourself permission to both finish and begin.

So on that note, here’s Lucy Peach on how she feels on this particular day of her cycle.

LP: Well, we are speaking… what day is it? Tuesday, and I am day 24 and so, for me, that means I’m well and truly in what I call the take phase, so that means that I’m premenstrual and ovulation is a distant memory. I think at this time of the month, I’m definitely more prone to melancholy. And I'm not depressed and it’s not terminal, it’s just a little bit thinner and you’re just a bit more open to the melancholy, so I’m just a little bit there, and that’s where I'm at.

MD: I can relate to that, and it’s before reading your brilliant book Period Queen. I joke with friends often about feeling that melancholy, feeling that flatness, which is what it’s like for me, and then getting my period soon after and then thinking, oh, why do I forget this every month? And I think it might be a common experience for people and I’m wondering if it might be… you’ve mentioned the take phase, but there’s the four phases you outline in Period Queen and maybe just hearing a little bit about each?

LP: So basically we’ve so long just treated the menstrual cycle like it’s on or off and it’s all about the period and ovulation doesn’t really get a looking, and it’s this kind of roller-coaster and it’s all over the place, and that is just not true. And when you look at the whole cycle, as a whole, and you zoom out and you understand that we have these hormones and that they really are a part of what makes us who we are and how we feel, then you can learn about the ways that you respond to them.

And obviously everybody’s different and it’s not a one-size-fits-all, there are four phases and four feelings, and there’s something wrong with you if you don’t fit into those boxes, because we’re all just so different obviously. But basically the four phases are as such.

So it begins on day one when you have your period and, when you look at what’s going on hormonally when you have your period to begin with, there’s just not a lot of anything. You’re pretty well flat-lined. And I call this the dream phase because it’s really a time when you can feel closest to your most soft, tender self, and you’re at the beginning. You’re at the beginning of a whole new month and it’s such a beautiful time to really look back and think about the month that you’ve just had and to think about the month ahead, and obviously really dial up all of the self-care things.

And so dream phase, week one, no hormones. And then as that week tails off, as your bleeding tails off, your eggs are already starting to get busy for the next ovulation and they’re starting to create estrogen, and this rising estrogen is really powerful. It’s like your climbing a metaphorical mountain, and so I call that week the time to do because if you’ve had enough rest and all the self-care in week one when you’ve got your period in the dream phase, then in theory, you’re really juiced up and energised and ready to go in week two.

Estrogen makes you faster and stronger and, coupled with the testosterone that you get just before ovulation, this is the time of the month where it’s typically the most masculine time of the month, where you can feel quite impatient and driven and focused and maybe you don’t really want to sit around hearing about people’s feelings, you just want to get the job done. You’ve come out of that cave well-rested and you’re just ready to do, and so I call that the do phase.

And that’s where the most energy is in the cycle. It’s where there’s the most flexibility. It’s generally the longest phase, so it can be a little bit more than week, depending on the length of your cycle. And once you get that shot of testosterone, that sort of tips you over and causes ovulation, and so that’s around the mid-point of the cycle. And once you’ve ovulated, you start producing progesterone, which is also known as nature’s feel-good hormone. And when you think about, biologically, what is happening at this time of the month, you’re preparing to procreate, you’re preparing to reproduce, you’re preparing to have this nest and your whole body is a nest and your capacity for communication and connection is really at an all-time high, and so I call this the time to give.

Because even if you’re not using those eggs to make babies, you’re still using that energy to put into all of the things that are in your life and, whether you have children or not, or never even want to have children, the energy that you can have now is quite motherly. You might find you more wanting to connect with your friends or call your family or have people over for dinner or wonder what you can do to help, or just really open, you know?

Your cervix right now, your cervix is literally open, which is the gateway between you and your most inner, inner part of your body. It’s like you are really open to receive and, yes, I call that the give phase. And I guess the give phase is what we really get excited about in terms of what the ideal woman is in the world and the problem is when you feel that you need to be in this space every day, because obviously you can’t be pumping out progesterone post-ovulation every day.

And, for a while, it is one hell of a sweet ride and you have the world on a string, and everything is possible and yes I’ll do this, and yes I’ll do that, and yes I’ll help you, and I’ll start a new band, and why not? I’ll look after your dogs for a while. And then all of a sudden, you can have what you mentioned earlier, the cycle amnesia where you’re just kind of like, oh my god, why is everyone taking everything from me? Why do I have nothing? Why is everything just so shit?

And basically it’s true. What goes up must come down, and I think that can sound negative, but actually it’s just the cycle. And all of those hormones, you get this huge spike in progesterone and you get another top-up shot of estrogen, so it’s just all going on. And then it starts to decline, once your body realises that you’re not using all of that good stuff to make a baby. It’s like okay, we’re getting rid of that nest, we’re moving on. Get rid of that, get rid of that, get rid of him, get rid of her, that’s shit.

It’s like everything is just up for being turfed, and I call that the take phase because I really feel that it’s the time where you need to do what Madeleine needs to do before you can do this whole thing again. You know? You’ve done the doing, you’ve done the giving, you’ve done the dreaming. You need to take what you need now to just…

The other way of looking at it, which was coined by Alexandra Pope who, together with Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer, wrote a book called Wild Power. She talks about the seasons, that when you have your period it’s winter, when you’re pre-ovulation it’s spring, post-ovulation is summer, and when you’re premenstrual it’s the autumn. And when you think about autumn, you can still have a nice, warm day with some sun, but generally it’s a bit windy, the leaves are falling off, the fruits all over the ground, and you’ve got to gather what’s left to really just go, okay, cool. I’m about to bleed, I’m about to go into my winter, I’m about to have my dream phase. What can I do now to really prepare for that, instead of skidding in on empty?

And I think one thing that really bears shouting from the rooftops is that being premenstrual is such a powerful time, it’s such a potent time, and I realised that for a long time in my teenage years and a lot of my 20’s that I wasn’t very kind to myself when I was premenstrual. And it was only a few years ago where I sort of thought, if you add up all of that time where we’re kind of admonishing ourselves when we’re premenstrual, not to say that you’re spending this whole week just hating on yourself, although I know some people do, but even if it’s just low-level kind of I’m not good enough, I’m feeling inadequate, I’m feeling overwhelmed.

So you have that, and then you plus having your period where there’s a whole cultural narrative of that, that you’ve just got to push through and anything you can do, I can do bleeding, and you got to keep going and you’ve just got to get it done and nothing can stop me.

It’s like, that’s half of your reproductively viable life that you’re spending just not being where you are. And when you think about seasons, night and day, and the seasons spring, summer, winter, and autumn, we don’t admonish those seasons. We understand that there’s a time for everything and once you dig a little deeper, I think there’s just this beautiful opportunity to really understand your flavour in each of those phases and how you can use it.

And it’s not to say that it’s the fixer of all things in your life, and obviously if you’ve got health issues around your menstrual cycle then it can just be like, I mean, I’m imagining there’s at least 8% of the people listening now who are like, what the hell? Shut your face, I hate my period, it’s awful. And those things can just really interfere with how you feel about your cycle and rightly so. But it’s just another lens to look at yourself through and it’s just so much richness there.

MD: So much richness. I’ve learned so much from my read through Period Queen, and it’s so empowering to see this as a cycle, which it is, and to see the seasons, and I’m actually wondering if this idea of cycle amnesia, as you put it, whether that’s connected to the fact that we live in this linear world that sort of caters to linear biology? And there’s kind of all this shame around taking the rest or being kind to ourselves even. Do you see a connection there? This forgetting?

LP: Oh, a million percent. The connection between the forgetting, for me, is more institutionalised, that forgetting, that disconnection, that whole separation between our head and the rest of our bodies. I mean, for so long, everything to do with women’s sexuality has just been completely, I don’t know, swept under the carpet at best and just demonised at worst. And the disconnection to cycles in general is obviously really prevalent for everybody, no matter what your gender or your experiences.

But for people with periods in particular, I think it’s this real sort of old grief. I don’t know, I feel like that is kind of really reared when you’re premenstrual and maybe when you get your period. It’s like ooh, that’s right, that’s right, it’s that thing. You know? And what if instead it was like okay, I’m looking at the moon or I’m looking at my calendar and I know I’m coming up for that and, instead of being smacked in the face with it, I’m going to have a bath that day, and I’m not going to speak to that person, I’m going to make myself a cake, and I’m going to do more stretching, or I'm going to listen to this music, or smell that smell, or all of these little things that kind of pad out that transition.

Then instead of it feeling like oh god, that’s right, I’m a woman and oh god, that’s right, I’ve got a cycle and it’s messing with me. Just that perhaps it would then just welcome it, and it would be like we’re supported and encouraged to make time and space for it. And I guess the cycle amnesia is just a symptom of a society that has so long been disconnected from what is wonderful about having a female body.

MD: Well, I will have cycle amnesia no more because, thanks to your book, I’ve gone into my Google Cal and I’ve mapped out each phase for a predicated amount. It’s just on a repeated calendar invite, so I’ve got my dream, I’ve got my do, I’ve got my give, I’ve got my take, and I know what’s coming just at a glance at my phone.

LP: Don’t you wish there was an app that would… because obviously your cycle can change, and some people who are just like unicorns to me are just like every month, I am exactly 29 days, and it never changes, and I can plan seven months in advance. I mean, that would just be a dream. But I wish there was an app that would talk to your Google Calendar and then it would just automatically update. Because I do the same, then I have to go in and say oh, actually no, that phase is then, and that phase is then, and rah, rah, rah.

And a few things I will just say really quickly to that, for people that are wanting to do that, obviously you know when you get your period, or when it’s due. Did you say yours is bang on, super regular?

MD: Yeah, 28 days, which is just great mathematically.

LP: Hey, what day are you right now?

MD: I had a question about that actually. I’m day six, and I’m so hungry today. Day six. I wondered whether that’s because I’m about to go into do and I need the fuel? So I’m going to have a second lunch after this, I’m that hungry.

LP: Yeah, well, go for it. I guess the only thing that I would say, and I’m not a doctor or a nutritionist, but just from what I’ve read and understand and know of cycles in general, is that your metabolism is slower in week two, so where you’re kind of at now. And maybe there’s something around maybe you’re just kind of making up for the loss of having your period and you just needing to replenish before you get started and go on do, but your metabolism is lowest now, and it’s highest when you’re premenstrual.

So that’s when you really need the fuel, and you can eat everything. And for me, it’s like, okay, if I'm going to really just go to town on some dirty burgers, then that’s when I’m like, bring it on, because I know I’ve got the metabolism to do with it. Which, you know, have a dirty burger whenever the hell you want, but all I would say is that if you have foods that are really high in carbs for instance, or just heaps of potatoes and flour or whatever, then you can feel more stodgy in week two because your metabolism is slower and that just ruins your doing vibe.

But it’s interesting, and now that you know that too, it’d be cool to note that somewhere, and then next month on day six you can be like, is that a pattern? Is that a one-off? Is that something that I know? Like maybe I’ll do some meal prep on day four or whatever.

MD: Exactly. So this is the very first cycle in my whole life where I’ve ever, ever taken notes each day, so I’m really excited about that. But also, what’s so beautiful about Period Queen is I’ve not only put in the phases into my Google Cal, but I’ve also just written a bit of a list of the things that you’ve suggested to do in each phase or what each phase can be quite powerful for. Just so that I know that, when I arrive in the dream phase, it’s a good time for intuition, as you say, or to journal and to dream. But maybe before we go into that, was there something that you wanted to say?

LP: Oh yeah, thank you. So what I was going to say is that if you are not someone like you and have a completely predictable 28 day cycle, then one thing is that once you ovulate, which people always say it’s around day 14 because, based on a 28 day cycle, you ovulate about 14 days before your next period, does that make sense? So if I have a 30 day cycle, which mine is more inclined to be, then I will probably ovulate on day 16, which I usually do.

And so once you ovulate, once you know that you have ovulated, then you know, okay, my period is going to be due in pretty well 14-ish days. And a really great way of knowing that you’ve ovulated is to, well, to learn more about fertility awareness and what’s going on with the changes that your body gives you, which is your temperature. Your temperature goes up once you’ve ovulated, the day after, so it lets you know you have ovulated. It doesn’t give you information that you’re about to ovulate. That is information that you can get from knowing more about your cervical fluid, so it being slippery in the few days before you ovulate.

Anyway, I won’t go into that because that’s a whole other thing, but knowing about when you ovulate, then it gives you more information for when your period is going to come. Does that make sense?

MD: Yes. Yeah, and that’s powerful to know there’s different phases different for everyone, but you can start to look for it in yourself. On this note of being kind to ourselves and recognising what we might need in different seasons, there’s some great things that you speak about that I’d just love to point to, but everyone should get this book.

LP: Yeah, tell me which ones you liked.

MD: I love this idea of really listening to yourself for the whole cycle and looking for these truth bombs. Maybe you could talk more to what you meant by truth bombs?

LP: Well, I guess that feeling like I was talking about before of when you’re premenstrual and when you think about what your body’s doing, your body is literally getting ready to let go again. It’s been weeks building this beautiful next, getting ready to support life, saying yes to all these things, and all of a sudden, well, maybe not all of a sudden, but eventually it gets the message that there is no big new thing happening in the womb this month, everything is just out, get it out, it’s all going.

And so when you’re physically getting ready to let go and you’re kind of shedding, I just think it’s the perfect time where you are more inclined to notice all of the other things that you want to let go of, and you’re more inclined to maybe see… okay, I’m going to point to the elephant in the room, which is everything can just be a little bit shit. And sometimes that feeling of oh my god, my job, or my partner, or my bedroom, or this doona, or my thighs, or everything, I just don’t like anything.

And obviously if you’re hating every single thing in your life, then that’s a pretty good indication that maybe everything in your life is not wrong. It is a feeling, and it will pass. And I guess the truth bomb theory is that, for so long, it’s like when people are grumpy about something when they’re premenstrual, it’s ooh, it’s just because of your hormones and it’s just because you’re premenstrual, and so you kind of go oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s just because of my hormones and I’ll just forget about that. And then when you get your period you’re like ooh yeah, it wasn’t really that bad, okay, maybe it’s just me. Rinse, wash, repeat.

And I think when you get those really big feelings that something is wrong, it’s really helpful to write them down. I call those truth bombs because I just think you have this propensity to really get this deep kind of knowing that that over there, I’ve finally realised is absolutely not okay and I am sick of it. And so when you get that feeling, instead of saying ooh, it’s just hormones, and argh, if you’re premenstrual, just write it down. Write it down and then you come back to that when you’re in the dream phase because then it’s a time to review. It’s a time to look back.

And then you can really think okay, this is what’s coming up for me, and maybe that truth bomb is presenting itself while you’re being premenstrual for three months in a row. And maybe it’s not your hormones and maybe you’re not a psycho, and maybe it’s your body’s way of saying hey, I’m trying to tell you something. I’m trying to tell you that this thing deeply is unsettling to you and needs an answer, and look at it, and make some time for it. And then, when you’ve got your period, that is the perfect time to really look at things more deeply and to mull over them. So the truth bomb management strategy is one that I really rely on myself.

MD: Is there something that comes to mind, that it’s really helped shape for you in be it your career, or your relationships, or life?

LP: Definitely relationships. I think in the past, as sort of late teens, early 20’s person, I definitely used that premenstrual energy to fix partners and to help them and, basically, I just think I had a creative drive that wasn’t going in the right direction. And at times, I wasn’t with the right person, like we often aren’t when we’re that age, and I think it really just reinforced my intuition. It gave me licence to listen in a way that…

Because when you’re premenstrual and your hormones are really crashing, and you can feel out of control, and it can feel scary, it can feel overwhelming, and it’s this fight with your rational brain and your deep soul, and it can just be a lot. So I guess writing things down is always quite soothing, I think. So then, more than ever, is a really good time to help you assess what’s going on, particularly with things like relationships or friendships, or an argument you’ve had, or these stones in your shoe that’s been rolling around for a while, and just wanting to really give it the time that it deserves, but without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

MD: You speak so beautifully in the book about this take phase and how there’s this wonderful epiphany when you realised it could be used so powerfully for creative work. And you yourself are extraordinarily creative with all the different things that you do. Not only this book, not only your work as an educator, but your performance career. What was that shift like where you realised that this could be used for creativity?

LP: Well, that was kind of how I got into this work to begin with. The book that I read was put out in 2008 by Miranda Gray and it was called The Optimised Woman and I read it when I was working as a sexual health educator, and she calls the premenstrual phase the creative phase. And that just was like a thousand million lightbulbs all going off at the same time.

And so what I started doing was I would schedule the two days before my period was due to write songs. And it wasn’t like that whole kind of… it’s important when you’re being creative, and I say being creative, but when you’re doing something creative, to not come at it like you’ve got all these expectations and objectives and it has to be like this, or it has to be like that. I think it’s just that space to really be playful with yourself in a semi-productive way, you know? Not all the songs were ones that I ever played again, but it was really just about being with that part of myself that I guess is a little reverent. It doesn’t care about what anyone else thinks, it doesn’t care about making anyone else happy. It’s really just about getting to the bottom of yourself.

And so I spent a long time just making time at that time of the month to be with that part of myself and to write songs, and that’s how I became a better songwriter. It’s also just dedicating time to do something that you enjoy and then, after you’ve done it long enough, you get a bit better at it because you’ve been doing it more often. And I guess further to what I was saying before about that energy being misplaced and trying to fix people and claim things, it’s a bit of a travesty. If you feel like actually there is this thing that I want to do, and there is this thing that maybe I think I could be okay at, and maybe I want to spend some time on, and if you have that, then you should run with it and you should do it when you’re premenstrual.

MD: That’s so great to harness that. I find it so fascinating because I think this happens obviously on a monthly level, but I think for me, this podcast being about both routines and ruts, is showing that constant pendulum swing. Sometimes we’re emotions, sometimes we need the rest. So I’m wondering for you, if you take a birds-eye look at your whole life at the moment and the situation that we’re in with the pandemic and so on, where would you place yourself more broadly? You’ve just had this book come out. How does that feel, when you reach the end of a big project? And now you’re working on a podcast, and yeah. Where are you placed at the moment?

LP: Oh my god, where am I placed? In a cave in a mountain far, far away with a weighted blanket.

MD: Sounds delightful.

LP: So on my birthday weekend in 2016, so almost four years ago, that’s when I was making a music video and the whole idea for making a theatre show out of this work around the phases was born. And since then, I have just been mining this vein in every direction, with so many different mediums and people and outcomes, and it’s been the most fabulous ride.

And it’s been something I’ve also shared with my husband, my partner, which has just been a really wonderful thing to share with another person, but particularly him. He’s a creative director, so I can say to him hey, can you draw this? Or can you make this? Or can you help me da, da, da, da, and then we make all these things together and it’s just really been incredible.

But I’ve really come to… I guess not the end, but I’ve definitely tied a bow on the book and the podcast and the EP, which has four songs that are for each of the four phases. And my book came out on the day of the Black Lives Matter blackout, which I just sort of thought that’s something I really need to think about. This book is about empowerment, so who is it empowering and who isn’t it empowering? How can I be more mindful of really helping to create space so that this idea can be accessed by more people everywhere?

So that was a really interesting thing to think about, and so timely, literally so timely. And then a few days after that, I got hit by a car, in my car. I was rear-ended. And so then I was like okay, I’m really hearing a message from the universe that is like, you know what, Lucy Peach? We’ve had enough of you, it’s time to go and be quiet. And then a few weeks later, I dropped my phone and the microphone stopped working, and so I just really experimented with being an introvert for a while.

As you know, when you’re doing something with momentum and steam and deadlines and some pressure and excitement, then when you stop, there’s parts of you that are still moving and they’re taking a while to slow down, and I’ve just been really observing that process and watching for post-project blues. I think I heard you talk about that with Benjamin Law.

MD: Yeah.

LP: Because there is that sort of thing. And actually I’m a few weeks into that and I’m starting to get the hang of it. I’ve learned how to do mending and it’s like that thing where you think you’re relaxed, and then you realise you’re still clenching your jaw. Or you think you’re relaxed, and you realise that your fingers are quite tense.

I’m just really trying to keep dropping into making some space, and I really have been enjoying that idea of being in the fallow, which is this idea that, if you’ve got a farm, you need to give the land a whole season to rest because it’s had all the energy sucked out of it, and you can’t grow things and you can’t keep planting and expecting it to be productive when you haven’t spent time just giving back to the soil.

MD: Such a lovely example for us to really honour the rest. You hinted that you’re more of a go with the flow person. I can relate to someone who also doesn’t really have much of a routine or structure day-to-day, but I wondered, what are your days looking like at the moment in terms of freelance work? Is there a bit of a structure to your day?

LP: Yeah, it depends. For me, it’s different whether… I have a 14-year-old and aa 16-year-old stepson and some of the time they are both with us, and some of the time it’s just my son with us, and then some of the time we don’t have them at all and it’s just my partner and I, and so there’s three different modes that we’re in. Generally, I just want to spend as much time with them as I can when they’re here, which is a pretty perfect arrangement, really, because no one ends up having time to get sick of each other.

Just coming back to the cycle, that’s why I love having that as a bit of reference because otherwise I can feel like my day gets sucked in all these different directions where I’m more present to other people. I’m the fluid one because my partner has a full-time job that he goes to at a desk, at another place that is not our home, and so I’m the one that can work more flexibly or is fitting in with the routines of other people. And I think, when you’re in that mindset all the time of being the one who is flexible, it can piss you off sometimes because you end up putting yourself second or third on the list.

Like I said, my partner went away for a surfing trip and he got back last night, and I’m day 24 now, and I’m kind of like actually, I was really enjoying the bed to myself and my god, you really take up a lot of room. And I don’t really want to have a long breakfast, I’m keen to get into my little rabbit hole myself. So because I know where I am, I let that guide me. I think when you’re a freelancer, it’s really just about resisting the pull to just get swallowed up in your phone and your computer, and feeling like you’re being productive, but also inspired, but connected. It’s a bit of an ongoing… I was going to say struggle, but I didn’t want to… But I’ll be honest, it is a struggle.

MD: Well, it is, and it can be hard to be everything all at once. I did like that there’s an awareness of boundaries in Period Queen and knowing when to say no, or when to avoid saying yes, yes, yes, because we can get ourselves in a bit of trouble with that. Especially as freelancers, the temptation to say yes to everything out of scarcity.

So how do you build that into your day in terms of workload? How do you know how much is enough, and too much?

LP: Well, my day job is a little bit morning, noon, night anyway, time job. The other thing is, when you’re really passionate about something, I could talk about the menstrual cycle all the time, and I really do want to get that message of understanding and awareness and empowerment to as many people as possible, but where I’m at now is I could run mother-daughter retreats, I could do one-to-one coaching, I could write more resources that are in line with the school curriculum, I could write an online course. I could do all of these, but I can’t do them all at once.

So in the midst of trying to be in that fallow space, I’m also like, oh my god, I need to do things and I need to do them now. So I’m trying to make space, but it’s just so tempting to keep piling things on your plate and, as you said, when you’re a freelancer, you don’t want to say no to things. But I think sometimes you need to say no to things for quite a long time to properly clear your plate because there’s so many things that linger and take time to fully tie a bow around.

For instance, I think that what I will be spending the next few months on is writing this online course, which will be to support the book and just give people a bit more support into doing a deep dive where they’re at and what’s going on and have little video and opportunities to connect online. And so when I come to create that, I’m going to sit down with my diary for the next few months and look at when I’m in the dream phase and when I’m really wanting to just do some big sky dreaming and thinking about ultimately what I want this course to be and how I want it to make people feel, and really just get to the nub of what that goal is before I start doing.

I just think there’s so much value in just totally stopping, and I guess what I'm hearing myself say is I’m still stopping. I’m still stopping after four years of really going hammer and tong. Touring the show around Australia and the UK, and writing the book, and putting out the music, and doing all these things, it’s just like being on a speeding train.

So now, making this course, I really will be making it in a way that allows me to use where I’m at for the next few months and to really practice what I preach, and put all those phases to good use. From there, I will give my day a bit more structure around working. I like to work mostly in the morning, unless I'm really in the zone, then I can go into the wee hours, particularly when I’m in week two. I don’t like to work through the night or anything, but it might be until 12 or 1 or something, and I just know that I can get away with one of those days when I’m in week two and it won’t put me out too much. It’s just knowing when you can push yourself.

MD: I just love this idea of giving yourself permission to stop what you’re doing, and I see this beautiful connection between permission to stop and how that can be difficult, but also the permission to begin. In the book, you do talk about this time where you went without singing for so long because you didn’t give yourself permission or you took on other people’s opinions, which we all do, and we let that shape us.

So I’d love to hear, was that a rut for you? How would you define a rut? How did you move through this in your life, to be able to finally give yourself permission to begin?

LP: Well, look, so I googled rut. It says a long deep track, a stretch of road made impassable. Because I was like a rut, I guess that’s like a groove in the road where you’re in this habit that isn’t fun anymore because you’re doing it all the time and it’s the same old thing. But the idea of it being impassable, like it’s so rutted that you can’t actually move through it.

And I think before I started singing, I really was in a rut and I didn’t even know it. I didn’t even know that I was in a rut. I had all of this creative energy that needed to go somewhere, and I just didn’t know what to do with it and when you mentioned before about permission to start something, I guess that whole idea of not wanting to look bad at something when you begin and thinking that maybe you need to sit away in your bedroom and make something perfect before you can share it with the world. It’s so limiting, isn’t it? And it kind of robs you of the experience of learning as well.

But it was having a baby, really, that snapped me out of that rut because once I had a baby, I just thought, I can make a baby. Well, obviously I needed a bit of help, but I can grow a baby within my body and give birth to it and sustain it with my tits alone. Why do I think I can’t sing? Or why do I think I can’t join a band? And so I did. I auditioned for a band and started writing songs when I was premenstrual, and off I went.

The way that I viewed it was that I was so old to be starting something new, I’m 27, oh my god, it’s ancient, oh, shock, horror. But I thought, I’m just going to imagine that I’m doing an apprenticeship, and so for three years, I’m just going to say yes to everything. And if someone wants to have a jam with me who’s a banjo player, I’m going to say yes. And if someone wants to invite me to be in a choir, then I’m going to say yes. And I’m just going to put myself out there for everything, with the knowledge that I don’t have to commit my whole life to this. I can just play. I can just get in the sandpit and make a mess and just see what feels good, follow my nose, and see where I end up.

That was really liberating because I just didn’t worry if I wasn’t doing it right, because I knew I wasn’t doing it right, but I didn’t care. Because I was enjoying myself. And it was really fun. I remember when I first started writing songs on a baritone ukulele, which is basically like a guitar without the heavy strings, and I remember just thinking, my god, my songs are all so depressing. What’s wrong with me? But then I realised, I couldn’t play very fast because I hadn’t been playing for very long.

And so gradually, over a couple of years, I started being able to play faster, and I can remember when I first wrote a song that really felt like it was moving in the way that I really wanted to move, and it was just like oh god, that feels so good, I just want to dine out on that forever.

MD: That permission to just be a learner and to be bad. I’ve written down, and I’ve actually got it on a Post-It note now, a sentence from your book, which is, “shame is a barrier to pride”. And you’re talking about period shame and period pride, but it’s everything, I think, to me. There can just be so much shame in not being a good enough singer, or not being a good enough writer, or being bad at whatever it is that we’re trying, or just not being a good enough human being.

But it sounds like you’ve really worked through shame in so many different facets. Do you feel that way?

LP: Yeah, maybe. I never thought about it like that, Madeleine, that’s really interesting. I mean, I guess we’ve just got Brene Brown to thank for dialling up the volume on the shame narrative, and it’s huge. It puts the brakes on everything, and it just stops you from doing stuff. The bit that really gets me is that, I mean, this girl came to the show when she was 11 or 12 and she’d just gotten her period, and she said to me that she was going to tell her mum that, when she was premenstrual and she was feeling grumpy and she didn’t want to hang out with her little brother and sister, that she was just going to go into her room and draw. She was going to shut the door and say everybody, I’m leaving, I’m going to draw, that’s what I’m doing. Which I was like, that’s great. It’s protective, it’s spending time doing something you love, rah, rah, rah.

And then a few years later, she showed me some of her drawings, and they were so beautiful. Maybe she would’ve done the drawing and become a better drawer anyway, but just this idea that you’re making this time to really connect with your creative self. You hear people say that they’re creative, and it makes me sad because I think just because you’re not into painting or singing or dancing, it doesn’t mean you’re not creative. And you can find that flow in whatever it is that you love, and just having the time and space to say, this is an important part of me and my life and my week and my month, and that’s when I’m going to use it. And I can use it to be a learner, and I can use it to be crap at something.

MD: Lucy, I feel like I could talk to you about periods, and cycles, and learning, and creativity forever. I guess reflecting on all of that and reflecting on these cycles that we can be proud of instead of ashamed of, and honouring the rest and the fallow, and all of those things. I just love to ask what people think days are for, or what’s your measure of a day?

LP: I love the idea of ritual. I’m always trying to build more ritual into my day and my family. Like on Sunday I was still feeling a bit of that post-ovulatory glow and I got up and I made a cake, and I put the word out to a bunch of people I’ve been wanting to see and just said, open house, come whenever you want. I don’t care when you come, I don’t care how you come, you don’t need to bring anything, but I’ve made a cake and I want to see you.

And I just thought, I’m going to make sure I do that. I’m going to make sure that, whenever I’m ovulating on a Sunday, I’m going to make a cake and have an open house or whatever. And so I’m always trying to look to create more ritual and connection. And in the middle of all of that, just doing things that make me feel like I’m honouring a purpose, so it’s all that loop, isn’t it? Of staying connected to yourself and to other people, and how I measure a day is absolutely how connected do I feel? Both to myself and to the people who I love.

MD: Lucy reminds us that all types of connection matters. Connection to our cycle, connection to our creativity, creation even to our shame or what our gut is telling us. And connection to those we love, including ourselves.

When we connect, we can learn from all parts of ourselves and the world. As Lucy writes in Period Queen, “learn to surrender to say yes to yourself and see the strength in your softness. Sit open to the first of each phase and cycle and be curious and playful with whatever challenges or joys await”.

I’m Madeleine Dore and that’s what I hope to share with this podcast — to be curious and open to the ebb and the flow.